Columnist - Mitra's Method  Posts: 189 Joined: 13 Mar 2007     |
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Killed 10 Boars Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Mar 2007 | You forget the #1 ACTUAL reason to avoid equipment looting: Downtime (Crying and whatnot comes after real gameplay consideration) You meantion starting from scratch, but thats not the issue either as in that environment, as UO people will tell you, you keep your bank stocked with spared... But the thing is, eventually you are going to have to take a day or so out of your usual activies to do NOTHING but restock your bank, and even then reequiping can take a little time and if you ran out of something in the midst of some hot PvP action, you'd play at least a half an hour of so shopping (and thats with quickly and readily available shops) and suiting up... After playing a lardge siege game like Shadowbane, I just couldn't do it... even there where you had item durability hits on death I didn't have to repair after my FIRST death, I could die a couple of times, then maybe swap out for some second string equipment in the bank and die a few more times.... sure I'd have a shitload of stuff to repair later, but that was my penalty, and I still had to pay it, but not at the sacrifice of fast paced PvP |
Columnist - Mitra's Method Posts: 189 Joined: 13 Mar 2007 | Ahh, yes, that's something I didn't think about, and you're quite right about it also. However, this would only be problematic with a "Looting Everything" system and maybe sometimes a "Loot One Item" system. I can see a scenario occuring like the one you have described with a "Looting Everything" system in place, because it is the most dramatic of all systems, but with a "Loot One Item" system, you might only lose a ring, or helmet, or glove, and so on, and thus the penalty would not be as severe. Yep, if you wanted that item back, you could fight for it, or you could go back to your personal vault and use a stand-by item. Anyway, like I mentioned in the piece, it comes down to Funcom testing their various systems during beta and determining which of three (or others proposed) works best and that the player-base as a whole is content with. Failing that, I'm sure if the PvP community could take their guilds to servers that didn't have looting and establish an "unofficial" PvP server of a kind, but I don't see things ending up that way; I'm confident Funcom will give us something that promotes fast-paced PvP.
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Site Manager  Posts: 473 Joined: 27 Feb 2005    | I suggested what I feel is the perfect solution to this issue (arrogant, I know) Whether you like it or not, there IS a section of the PVPing populace who want looting of players in their PVP. However, I am not one of them, but I do like to look at things objectively and I think this system could work: Basically you loot Blood Money and chances to loot PVP items that were earned through Blood Money. If you break that down you're always looting blood money ,but you're still looting specific items sometimes. This way everyone wins and the system is self contained. For example, maybe you're on the lower rungs of the PVP ranks and you manage to vanquish someone much higher, who has earned some of the more coveted Blood Money purchasable items. Well instead of just a random chance at x amt of his actual blood coins, you may have a chance to take one of his PVP items as well. It simply adds more depth to the already interesting Blood Money system, while at the same time should satiate those in the PVP community who wish for player looting, that aren't just griefers who want it so they can ruin someones day. I am strongly against PVE gear or items being looted through PVP encounters, it raises the bar to entry further for an activity that frankly a very small amount of any MMO game population participate in. I've heard the devs mention accessibility as a top priority for this game, and rightly so, as thats important to target the more casual demographic in this genre, as well as expose more of your game population to features you've spent considerable amount of development time on. As such, item looting would definitely prohibit that accessibility, unless it was self-contained as detailed above. Thats my two cents. I was pondering writing an editorial based on that interview on the same issue. You beat me to the punch Weezer. :P Perhaps i'll still whip something up :P ---------------------------------- |
Asst. Site Manager  Posts: 19 Joined: 30 Mar 2007   | Another good read this time. PvP is definitely not a one-sided topic, and it's good to see some of the various discussions going on both in this article and on the forums. Only with less argument here, of course. ;)
This is actually a really good idea. Personally, I'm against any player looting, as I feel it only encourages ganking, excessive PKing, and discourages people from PvP due to not wanting to lose their gear, this is a pretty good midpoint. I think the abovementioned one item from backpack method could work as well, but limiting looting to PvP gear is a better idea. |
Apprentice Posts: 1 Joined: 23 Jun 2007 | I think the already inplemented bloodcoin system is perfect as an individual penalty for losing a fight in pvp. I mean why should you lose an item when you are solo and just got rolled by an 8man group? that makes it way to easy for a group/guild to get stuff for free. mean while some solo player worked their butt off for that item. you want looting.... it should be done on a bigger scale like relics and keep takes. where its challenging for guild or group but the entire group recieves a relic bonus as a reward for their hard work. don't try to fix something hat ain't broken is all im tyring to say. Let me put this in perspective I worked my ass off endless hours trying to get some decent loot to compete with, Im now ready for a shot at Pvp. I take my first step into the battlefield and Im dead within 20secs by some twinked out super group and I just lost some or all of my items?!?! you can believe a couple more times of that and Im ready to quit this stupid frustrating game! and thats how Im sure many others would feel. |
Columnist - Mitra's Method Posts: 189 Joined: 13 Mar 2007 |
And thus the looting system would have to work so it didn't encourage ganking or any sort of PK rolling. Looting has to be equitable, that is, an eight man team shouldn't be rewarded for defeating one opponent, because firstly you'd have the issue of how loot is first distributed to members of the team. Svengali's suggestions were good: - PvE gear would be unlootable And to support one of Gaute's ideas: - Loot only from the backpack Bloodcoin looting will be the reward/penalty on normal PvE and RP servers, and so you'd only see item looting on PvP/RPvP servers as Gaute pointed out in the interview here last week. Like I've mentioned earlier, I would like to see a form of looting on PvP/RPvP servers, but in a way that ALL players could be content with. So there's going to be some serious testing during General Beta to see what looting model works best, but more importantly to gauge the reaction from the beta testing playerbase, positive or negative. If negative, try a different model, rinse, wash, and repeat. It might even get to the point where PvP item looting is not implemented until after the game is released, but I think it would be naive to assume that PvP item looting will not make it into the game at all (on PvP/RPvP servers, that is).
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Apprentice Posts: 1 Joined: 24 Jun 2007 | Working off of Svengali's idea although this may be what you were getting at. Have it that you can loot PvP items as you said, but a really limited chance to and the amount of BCs you have on your affect the chance to obtain a PvP item from someone. But have bag looting effective, but time-limited in it's access. Say, if you kill someone and don't loot them within 30 seconds, you can't loot their backpack - but you still have that random chance to loot a PvP item. It'll mean if there are several players in an area all fighting, you have to hope you can loot and not get killed yourself in the process (or kill everyone within 30 seconds. |
Apprentice Posts: 1 Joined: 24 Jun 2007 | i always think of how to avoid griefing in such systems. its obvious that every flaw in a loot system would be used to its worst. there are many evil scenarious that i can imagine that would drive everyone of you crazy ingame. so what i can imagine, others can do also. there is one possible workaround for it in my opinion. just include all three lootsystems with one to choose as activ (switching possible). if two players match with their choice of lootsystem looting will be possible, otherwise none is allowed to loot anything. like stone, scissors and paper. this would provide a good balance between risk vs security. only those players choosing the same risk would be rewarded/punished. |
Apprentice Posts: 8 Joined: 17 Jun 2007  | I will not play the game if ther is actual item looting. PERIOD. The griefing and wanton pking...been there done that..won't pay money to experience that...ever.If you have ever played DAOC, or UO in the early uncontrolled pk days, you would clearly understand why item looting would not be accepted by the majority of the playing community.No need to reinvent the wheel on this subject. |
Columnist - Mitra's Method Posts: 189 Joined: 13 Mar 2007 |
If you feel that strongly against item looting, then there'd always be the option of playing on a server where there wasn't item looting. Not all server types will have item looting - it is only PvP and RPvP servers that will have it in place. However, there will be Bloodcoin looting (PvP zone currency) on every server.
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Apprentice Posts: 2 Joined: 25 Jun 2007 |
Totally in opposite way! |
Columnist - Mitra's Method Posts: 189 Joined: 13 Mar 2007 |
What makes full-item looting so appealing to you? Do you mind expounding?
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Apprentice Posts: 2 Joined: 25 Jun 2007 |
First of all, too much "artificial" reward or penality i think that will ruin the Role Playing. Anyway a kill isn't always a corpse loot, RPG mean ROLE playing game, then if you are good, and can kill someone in a "chivarly" duel you can choose to don't loot him for respect. |
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Mitra's Method: Booty, Plunder, Swag... Loot?
Loot. There's not much other way to start this editorial this fortnight, because the topic of hot debate for all budding Hyborians is loot!
An interview posted here at AoC on WarCry with Funcom developer, Gaute Godager, certainly stirred the hornet's nest and revealed many player sensitivities not only regarding PvP, but the issue of player looting and how it will be manifested in 'Age of Conan'. It is yet to be determined how and what sort of looting system we'll see in-game, but a wedge has been driven between the PvP community as a whole.
Okay, nothing has been set in stone yet, but it is made quite clear that a form of looting is on the cards for 'Age of Conan' PvP, on what you might consider the "hardcore" PvP servers anyway (referred to as "RPvP" by Gaute). But what I'd like to do today, firstly, is to look at the different options Gaute suggested (nothing definitive there of course - just things thrown out) for looting: looting everything, one item looting, and items from the back-pack; examine the pros and cons of each, and leave it to you, the Mitra's Method faithful, to see whether each way could be viable or acceptable, but more importantly to pick out the flaws so that the method could be changed in a way that everyone could live with, or thrown from the drawing board to the waste-basket.
Looting Everything
This would work like your "all in" bet with every bet at the casino. Anyone should know that coming into a PvP environment in itself is a bit of a gamble, and in this scenario the stakes are high, so you better have your game face on. In a situation like this it's always everything to gain, and everything to lose, and like in a game of Poker, it's usually someone who knows that game best that's going to come out on top. Even on PvP or RPvP servers, there are always going to be people that have a better knowledge of the combat system, a plethora of tactics to dive into when faced with different combat scenarios, those who prefer to fight in packs, so to speak, and so on. Essentially, this system favours the more experienced PvPer(s). An experienced PvPer is going to worry less about losing their own items and quite simply "go for the gold". Expect to see your "high rollers", and those that figuratively just gambled away their life savings.
What kind of behaviour would a "Loot Everything" system encourage? Team fighting? Mob mentality? Ganking? Possibly nothing different to what you'd see on a standard PvP server in any game right now, but there's only so much losing all your in-game possessions a player can take, and even the most hardcore of PvPers may become discouraged after losing their prized possessions, but you may call this incentive to persevere: So much to gain, so much to lose. I mean, you'd lose your weapon of choice, your armour, jewels and so on, and would have to start from scratch. On top of that, you'd lose Bloodcoins making those special PvP-only items even further out of reach (if not acquired already), forcing a player to go back and fight with newly purchased PvE items. To be perfectly honest, I don't think everyone could be happy with a full-looting system.
One Item Looting
Some might consider this to be a safer gamble, but how would it be decided on which item would be lost after being defeated by another player? Would bound items be exempt, or would it be one item randomly selected by game mechanics? Regardless of how items are selected, I think it would be safe to say with a system like this, a mob mentality and ganking is less likely to occur as a means of "farming" other players for their gear. One item looting would actually encouraged more one versus one combat as players would not have to worry about being defeated and having all their items shared amongst a group of, yes, gankers. So the lone wolf-type PvPer should not be afraid in venturing out to the Border Kingdoms or adventuring alone in a FFA environment.
The only issue with one item looting, as earlier mentioned, would be on what items would be eligible for looting: all or non-bound items? An "all items eligible" system would give this particular method of looting a lucky-dip feel, or what some might call the Forrest Gump effect, because "You never know what you're gonna get". If the system was worked out to be random in nature, that is more of a game of luck, then the equation would simply be that if you want decent loot, you're going to have to spend more time PvPing, unless of course you're absolutely lucky the first time around.
Back-Pack Looting
With this system you'd have to assume it would work just as it sounds: what ever is in your back-pack at the time of defeat is there for the plundering. The good thing about this sort of looting system would be that items already equipped (weapon of choice, armour, jewels, etc.) would be safe from grubby little hands (since they'd be out of your back-pack and on your body), so there'd be no tears shed (not to say that any of you would actually cry over something like this, right?) over losing your hard-earned items. An item required for a quest may be exempt (like 10 boar hoofs for an NPC alchemist or whatever), but otherwise if it's in your back-pack, you're going to lose it!
The sensible player with this system would ensure that any valuable item in their back-pack was stored in an in-game vault (bank or guild-house) before entering into the PvP environment. This way, the only thing a player would have to lose would be anything they have accumulated from any other player on the play field, so in the end you may just end up breaking even, no biggie. This option is probably the least "hardcore" of the ideas thrown out there, as there are ways of avoiding being looted of any decent unequipped items. For the loot enthusiast, this may be an option that bears too much risk for very little or quite possibly even no reward.
Okay, so those are the ideas Gaute put out there (and please keep in mind they were just ideas - nothing definitive), and I've broken them down and run through them with a fine-tooth comb, but what about the concept of looting itself? The idea of looting lends itself well to almost any MMORPG, and is no different for 'Age of Conan'. This is a world filled with brigands, thieves, swine (and the bacon-type too), scoundrels (Han?), pirates, and those who just want copious amounts of bling (please note that Robert E. Howard never used the word "bling" in his works), so realistically, and for the sake of immersion, perhaps looting should be expected. I, personally, would be welcoming of it, but in a form that everyone could live with. Of the three different systems Gaute threw out there, which would you prefer (and please, feel free to leave a comment with your preference), or can you think of something better?
For most PvPers, perhaps the reward of Bloodcoins is not enough, and the penalty of losing only Bloodcoins on defeat is not serious enough. In addition to his comments about a looting system, Gaute said:
And he's right: the reward of loot for defeating another player is much better because it adds that element of risk in a PvP setting. Having something at stake, like a prized possession, makes the PvP encounter all the more interesting, and for most, a lot more fun. Think of it this way: You and your buddy have made a friendly bet on the outcome of a football game (Gridiron for you Yanks, and Soccer for you Euros). You and your friend put nothing at stake except your own pride and there's nothing to win except bragging rights. Throw some money (or a ridiculous punishment) into the mix, and things suddenly get interesting. Why? Because bragging rights last only as long as until you make the next bet, and so the desire for a bit of wager revenge wanes.
As soon as a player loses and item or a hard-earned bit of loot, typically, the player's desire to win it back increases, and the only way to get it back, in a PvP scenario, would be to fight for it. The same happens in a friendly wager - what starts out as a friendly bet may all of a sudden turn into "double or nothing". Would victory be not all the sweeter when you have won back your items and gained those (or one or two) belonging to your opponent?
Funcom realises that looting is not everyone's cup of tea (or "bowl of steaming mead" - what the hell was that all about?), and so looting will not be implemented on every server type. But for the PvP/RPvP servers (yes, we're still waiting for clarity on that issue itself) looting certainly seems like making its way in. So now, responsibility falls on Funcom developers and beta testers. Looting systems like the three mentioned earlier should be tested, and feedback given by the beta player-base should be taken very seriously. In other words, the customer is going to want a feature with a product they are going to get the most enjoyment from, and while I can't see Funcom not putting looting in-game, they're going to have to be careful with the way it finally winds up on release. So the challenge has been set: Funcom, implement a looting system that every PvPer can live with.
Conclusively, it is evident that 'Age of Conan' developers want to implement a looting system that fundamentally is fun, drives players to fight more and more, and build a strong and competitive PvP community. No matter what your view is on looting, and whether you're a "hardcore" PvPer or not, be constructive with your feedback regarding PvP item looting. PvP should be more interesting for those willing to take the risks, as "Fortune favours the bold" and "Nothing risked, nothing gained".
Until next fortnight, this is Stephen "weezer" Spiteri,
Out.
Want to contact me? Then email me here.
© Stephen Spiteri, June 2007
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